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Yes, buddy, at the moment I do think that Allah is 'The God,' provided we can translate 'ilah' the same way.
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To be honest, my understanding comes, to a large degree, from two Quranic verses.
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But apart from that, what do you propose is the meaning of 'ilah'. And what about 'Allah'? Take care.
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I will try to break this up into manageable parts so that we can know where to agree or disagree; I hope this is okay with you, buddy.
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@ Ilah mean god, any god,
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Al-Ilah, also means any god,
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so we can refer to any man made god using Ilah or Al-Ilah
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I agree that the disbelievers misappropriate the term 'ilah' and take others than Allah as 'ilah,' but this does not mean that there really are multiple 'ilahs'.
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Here the Quran condemns those who take two 'gods,' and tells that indeed He is the only Ilah:
16:51 God says: 'Take not to you two gods (ilahayni). He is Ilahun Wahidun; so have awe of Me.'
There are many other verses that tell us that there is only One Ilah.
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So, the correct understanding would be that we have only one Ilah. If you agree with this, then we will move on to the next part. Take care.
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@ This is because Allah is still using the word Ilah to refer to Himself, i.e. Ilah can be used to refer to Allah and any man made god, while the name Allah is a unique name that is explicit to Allah
Certianly I agree with that, i.e. we can refer to Allah using the word Ilah, as for the believers there is only one Ilah who is Allah
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It is not only the believers who have one Ilah, buddy, everybody has only one 'ilah'.
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16:51 God says: 'Take not to you two gods (ilahayni). He is Ilahun Wahidun; so have awe of Me.'
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It doesn't say that he is One Ilah only for the believers,
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merely that there is only One Ilah.
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If you can bring a verse where Allah or a Prophet tells the believers to take one 'ilah' and the disbelievers to take another 'ilah,' then I would be interested in seeing it.
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Note this verse, where He again says there is only One Ilah:
16:22 Your Ilah is One Ilah. And they who believe not in the world to come, their hearts deny, and they have waxed proud.
The disbelievers wrongly take others as 'ilah' but the Quran does not endores their practice (16:22, 16:51). Whether Muslims or non-Muslims (Pagans/jews/Christians/others), there is only One Ilah for all.
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Yes, buddy. And what we are interested in is the right perspective and not the disbelievers' perspective. So now we agree that there is in fact only one Ilah (for believers and disbelievers alike) and that is Allah. I will now move to the next part of your earlier post.
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@however if we use the word Ilah to refer to Allah then we must add to the sentence something that uniquely identify Him which His unique name Allah, i.e.
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La Illah Illa Allah
i.e. there is no god except Allah
or A Ilah Ghair Allah
i.e. is it a god other than Allah?
for the first example it should sound odd if you say it like this: there is no god except the God, it makes absolutely no sense
and for the second example, it should also sound odd if you say it like this: is it a god other than the God?
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I don't see why it makes no sense or that it sounds odd; it is probably because you are looking at it critically.
Let's read it again, this time with 'Allah' as 'The ilah': There is no ilah except The ilah.
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Let us now compare it with another verse (16:22): Your ilah is One ilah
Here's another verse (4:171): The ilah is One ilah.
Now compare 4:171 and 16:22 -- what do we get?
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I did feel that 'ilah' was a misunderstood term, but it is only now that I tried a methodical approach to the subject. And Allah does indeed forcefully convey that He Alone is Ilah.
21:25 And We sent never a Messenger before thee except that We revealed to him, saying, 'There is no ilah but I; so serve Me.'
And Pharaoh's (one of the most arrogant and obstinate disbelievers depicted in the Quran) late realization in 10:90 is also profound.
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I am glad we had this conversation, buddy.
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At the moment I do believe Allah to be 'AlIlah/The Ilah'.
So Ilah, 'One Ilah' and 'The Ilah' have the same connotation -- God, One God, The God.
Now you don't think Allah is 'The Ilah,' what then do you propose Allah means? Does it mean anything?
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Forget translating a name, names can mean something. We don't translated Muhammad into English, but Muhammad means 'one who is praised' or 'praiseworthy'. Likewise, does Allah have any meaning?
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I agree that somebody named 'Muhammad' in Arabic should be referred to as 'Muhammad' in any other language. But Muhammad does mean something in Arabic.
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If you take Allah as God's Name in Arabic (though Allah Alone can 'name' Himself)
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and then propose that it should not be translated in English or other languages then I think it's worth considering.
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However, I do feel 'Allah' should imply or mean something at least in Arabic, even if that meaning cannot be conveyed sufficiently in any another language.
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@ Well, if I mention Allah then I mentioned the name of the The only God
i.e. I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid
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What you said above gives the impression that there are 'ilahs' other than 'Ilah Wahid'.
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But Allah Himself is very clear about the matter and says 'There is no Ilah except I". As such both Ilah and Ilah Wahid can only refer to the same Being.
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What we have seen from the Quran so far is this:
That disbelievers do misuse the term 'ilah,' but the fact is that there are no multiple ilahs; there is only one Ilah.
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Even the term 'Allah' is misused. Some say Allah has son or daughters or that He is "third of three". Of course, this does not mean that there are multiple Allahs; it is just that the disbelievers misuse the term.
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In effect, we have established that in the true context (and not the disbelievers'), Ilah, One Ilah and Allah refer to the same One Being.
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Let me now move to the verses that I talked about earlier. I start with 43:84:
And it is He who in heaven is Ilah and in earth is Ilah; He is the All-wise, the All-knowing.
If we understand Ilah as God, what the verse is saying is that "He is God in the heavens and in the earth."
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My next verse is 6:3:
He is Allah in the heavens and the earth; He knows your secrets, and what you publish, and He knows what you are earning.
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If we say Allah does not mean "The Ilah,"
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or that it has no meaning and is only a label,
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then the verse merely explains that "He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth," which is obscure and explains nothing.
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On the other hand, if we understand Allah as 'The Ilah/God,'
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then we get the following understanding: "He is the God in the heavens and in the earth". This is exactly what 43:84 says, and fits in with the context of both the verse perfectly.
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In effect, Allah as merely a label does not give a context to 6:3,
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while Allah as 'The God' gives it a direction and a context that is reinforced by 43:84.
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I will not be around (at least won't be able to log in) for the next few days. I will reply to any post (and give an example to clarify my take on 6:3, if needed) when I log back in. Take care.
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Looks like the trip got delayed, so I will stick around some more.
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@ But Ilah cannot be the same as Ilah Wahid, how can two words equal one word? Impossible
Ilah means god
Ilah Wahid means: God alone, or One God
Read correctly, buddy. I said Ilah and Ilah Wahid refer to the same being, not that they are one word.
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If you think that Ilah is somebody other than Allah, then you contradict the Quran when God says, "There is no Ilah but I".
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@I am really not concern what the disbelievers and even the believers say, what I am talking about is only a linguistic issue, it has nothing to do with what the people say
I am not concerned with what you say,
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rather with what the Quran says.
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The Quran tells us that Only Allah is Ilah,
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and it gets settled there. If you believe that there is an Ilah other than Allah, then find a verse for it.
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@That is not a misuse, rather associating partners with Allah
"Allah is third of three" is plain English. Unless you also believe "Allah is third of three," then these are two different usage of Allah.
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@ so all other verses where Lut, Ismael and Foron names are menioned, have no context to you?
I was expecting this argument where you would compare Allah with human names.
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Consider this scenario: A man named Ismael, who is the king of certain country.
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Now if he says "I am Ismael of this country" it doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if he says "I am King of this country" it does make sense.
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Let us go a step further and say that his name is Malik rather than Ismael. Again, if he says "I am Malik of this country," where Malik means King, then it makes sense. But if Malik does not mean King, and is a meaningless name or label, then "I am Malik of this country" is an equally meaningless sentence. The same goes when you say Allah is a Name or label with no meaning and apply it to 6:3.
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You had said that your "strongest argument" is that AlIlah can refer to a man-made "god".
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But only the disbelievers believe that there exists Ilah other than Allah. In essence, rather than following the erroneous concept of the disbelievers that there is an Ilah other than Allah and split hairs over it, we should listen to what the Quran says. I believe the Quran takes precedence, but you are trying to make an appeal to chirography, so we will look into that.
Whether Allah is a "combination" of Al and Ilah or not is the case you want to argue. Go ahead and talk about it, buddy.
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@ Why you are debating me in the subject then?
To prove me wrong?
You were the one who misunderstood Ilah and started this thinking that you had something in there.
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The Quran says that only Allah is "Ilah".
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If you find a verse where Allah has appointed an Ilah other than himself then present it.
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Else you are simply pussyfooting around by appealing to what disbelievers say. The disbelievers say "Allah is third of three". Imagine a disbeliever making it a "linguistic" pretext to contradict what the Quran clearly says.
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@ If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?
Stop being a pussyfooter. Get yourself educated on the matter and see what the opinion of Arab linguists is on the matter at hand.
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Coming to the "missing alif" do you think this is the only known case? Can you present the calligraphy for lillah (li Allah)?
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As expected more pussyfooting, dude. I will help you:
اللَّهِ Allah
لِلَّهِ li Allah
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Another lie, pussyfooter; there is no such concern that li would get assimilated with the alif and look like "not Allah". Li does not have an alif, only a small vowel.
Here is another example where 'alif' has been dropped and is opportune under the circumstance:
لِلْكَافِرِينَ
The Egyptian guy you alleged to have met was probably another runt who read half a book on Arabic and decided he knew all. And the two of you couldn't tell each other apart. Take care.
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As expected more pussyfooting, dude. I will help you:
اللَّهِ Allah
لِلَّهِ li Allah
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If you think enough has been said then lock the thread, buddy. Take care.
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There are many Arab linguists who have traced the word to 'ilah,' so I don't see why you have closed your mind to it. Anyway, this argument lost the decorum. Thanks for the discussion, buddy; take care.
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Was 'Allah' used before the revelation of the Quran? Or did it come into circulation with the revelation?
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I too hold that 'Allah' was used in Arabic before the revelation of the Quran.
I am not so much insisting that Allah has to be Al + Ilah; but I do believe that Allah should mean something (especially in light of 6:3 and 43:84). Like in the case of of AlRahman, which I believe you understand as "The Compassionate".
The other thing was about alif being dropped in other usages, too; as in "bism" Allah. So I feel that it is neither impossible nor certain.
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That's right, brother. When 'bi' precedes Allah or Alghayb then the alif is not dropped, but it is curiously dropped in 'bism'. I think this is the only instance of 'ism' in Quran where the alif is dropped.
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There are curious cases of alif being dropped, so I do not rule out 'Allah' as 'Al' + ''Ilah', neither do I insist that such is the case.
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On the other hand, Ilah refers only to God.
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If somebody worships a stone and takes it as his Ilah, it doesn't mean that the stone really becomes his Ilah and can be called as such.
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The Quran plainly says that only Allah is Ilah,
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and that we have no Ilah other than Him.
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And since both of us stick to our respective stance over whether Ilah can be used only for Allah or that it can be used for others, we do have a disagreement over there.
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To clarify my standpoint, here is how the Quran answers the claim of multiple ilahs:
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6:19 Say, what thing is the strongest in bearing testimony? Say, Allah; He is witness between me and you. And this Koran was revealed unto me, that I should admonish you thereby, and also those unto whom it shall reach. Do ye really profess that there are other aalihatan together with God? Say, I do not profess this. Say, verily He is one Ilah; and I am guiltless of what ye associate with Him.
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Finally, we disagree over 6:3. I don't believe that 'Allah' with no meaning does justice to the verse.
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God says that He sends His messengers for guidance, and also gives particular instances like "We sent Noah," or "We sent Shuaib". Similarly, where we know Muhammad is God's messenger, "follow Muhammad" becomes reasonable (because we know he is God's messenger), But Noah, Shuaib, and Muhammad are messengers and instances of messengers, while Allah is God and does not have an instance.
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Something is conveyed by "I am Allah's messenger," but saying "I am Allah's Abraham" doesn't carry the same connotation. Likewise, "He is the God in the heavens and the earth" conveys something, but "He is Allah in the heavens and the earth" doesn't.
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@ Forget the Alif if Isam as it can be written Bi Ism, it cannot be grammatically incorrect
Why forget it? Can you explain why alif is dropped in 'bism' Allah but retained elsehwere?
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Looks like we might have a go at each other again, brother. : grin :
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@ Forget the Alif in Isam as it can be written Bi Ism, it cannot be grammatically incorrect
Why forget it? Can you explain why alif is dropped in 'bism' Allah but retained elsehwere?
grin :
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@ grammatically, Ilah should refer to any god
That is where we disagree. The Quran says very clearly that Allah Alone is Ilah, so I don't see how it can be any other way.
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@ I really dont know why they removed the alif, however I read in the past (many years ago) that it can be written with Alif, I will try to find it for you, this is like Ya Allah, and Yallah
It will be better when there is a definite explanation as to why the alif is missing in 'bism' Allah.
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I am repeating this because you might miss it as we posted at almost the same time, and this one got stuck on the previous page:
I think this will help us resolve some misunderstanding, brother. What do you mean by 'god' when you say "grammatically, Ilah should refer to any god".
I ask this because I think now I understand where we are not looking eye to eye.
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@ I mean that the word mean any god real or man made, only the context of its sentence should determine which god we are talking about, real or man made
I can understand the real 'god,' but how can there be a man-made 'god'? A man-made god is simply a falsehood. Refer to my post above, buddy.
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@ However for a believer like you or me, we know well that there is no other god than Allah, but that does not in anyway invalidate any context of using the word to refer to any man made and imaginary god, the Quran used the word Ilah and its plural Aliha many times to refer to man made gods or imaginary gods
Refer to my post above.
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@ in fact, the arabic word Al-Ilah can never be understood to refer to the one and only God unless it is put in such context or just taken for granted by believers like you and me that it means The Only God
I don't know what you mean by that. When Allah says He Alone is Ilah, then Ilah can only be understood to refer to Him.
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@ Howveer using the word Allah alone clearly and explicitly if used by me, you or any kafir, it menas the God of the Quran, about which the Quran says He is the Only Ilah
Many Christians use the word to refer to 'Allah' in their Bible, who has a son. Likewise the Pagans also used Allah to refer to the one who they believed has daughters. So that's incorrect, brother.
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That is why the Quarn replied to them and accused them of being kafirs, this is because they talk about Allah, i.e. the nae of the God of the Quran, i.e. the One and Only God, had they say that jesus (who is their manmade god) had a son, the Quran would not have cared, because they are not talking about Allah
- Mon 22 Feb, 2010 7:56 pm
Post subject:
@That is why the Quarn replied to them and accused them of being kafirs, this is because they talk about Allah
Then why did you claim that even if a "kafir" uses the word Allah he is referring to God of Quran? Your claim was erroneous.
I could hardly make anything of the rest of what you posted, buddy.
I will leave it at this: Anybody who says that Allah or Ilah can refer to other than God is a disbeliever and has invented a falsehood.
21:25 there is no Ilah other than I
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