Quote:
|
There is only one true God.
God is infinitely holy
God is eternal and has no beginning or end.
God is independent of all. He is his own reference point and he is the reference point for all of creation.
God is a loving and merciful.
God is perfect and cannot make any mistakes
God is infinitely good, righteous and just. God cannot improve - for that will mean that God was not so good, perfect. righteous etc at some time in the past.
God is omnipotent - all powerful. No one can put any limit on him, however God is limited by who he is. This means that God cannot be "not God". This means that he cannot act in any way that negates or contradicts his attributes. This means that God is consistently good, just, holy etc. This question may bring out what I mean that God is limited by himself: If God is so powerful and all knowing, can God then tie a knot so complicated that God himself cannot untie? If God is indeed able to do everything and there are no limits for him, then he should be able to tie such a not. But by doing so God will negate himself and made himself "not God"
God is omniscient - all knowing. (Humans are finite so they will not be able to understanding everything. We believe our scriptures give/reveal sufficient answers, but not exhaustive answers)
God is omnipresent - he is/ can be everywhere.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
AhmedBahgat,
I propose that we refer the God of the Bible as YHVH and the God of the Koran as Allah. "God" will be the generic term to refer to what we understand to be the real god. This will save me typing "the God of the Bible" each time I refer refer to him.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
If you are agreeable, I believe we should start with the presuppositions we have of this God to ensure that I will not be referring to an apple while it was an orange that you had in mind.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Below are some of the presuppositions I have of this God. I do not claim it to be exhaustive, as your presuppositions may provide new insights that I had not thought of. So please go through them, add your presuppositions and views- disagree or agree with the list below, thanks.
|
Quote:
|
There is only one true God.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is eternal and has no beginning or end.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is independent of all.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
He is his own reference point and he is the reference point for all of creation.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is a loving and merciful.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is perfect and cannot make any mistakes
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is infinitely good, righteous and just.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God cannot improve - for that will mean that God was not so good, perfect. righteous etc at some time in the past.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is omnipotent - all powerful. No one can put any limit on him,
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
however God is limited by who he is. This means that God cannot be "not God".
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
This means that he cannot act in any way that negates or contradicts his attributeus.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
This means that God is consistently good, just, holy etc.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
This question may bring out what I mean that God is limited by himself: If God is so powerful and all knowing, can God then tie a knot so complicated that God himself cannot untie?
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
If God is indeed able to do everything and there are no limits for him, then he should be able to tie such a not. But by doing so God will negate himself and made himself "not God"
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is omniscient - all knowing. (Humans are finite so they will not be able to understanding everything.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
We believe our scriptures give/reveal sufficient answers, but not exhaustive comleteruote
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is omnipresent - he is/ can be everywhere. [/b]
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
I look forward to your contributions and your views.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is eternal and has no beginning or end.
|
i disagree slightly
I say, God is the beginning and the end
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
He is his own reference point and he is the reference point for all of creation.
|
Not sure what you mean that He is a reference point?
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God cannot improve - for that will mean that God was not so good, perfect. righteous etc at some time in the past.
|
I disagree, because when God improves something, it is not because that He was not good, rather it may mean that it was not the right time for the creatures to accept something at full scale, so it was presented to them in doses that will indeed IMPROVE THEM and not improve Him.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
however God is limited by who he is. This means that God cannot be "not God".
|
This is a silly statemnet and Ii have to dismiss it, it makes no sense
Nicolei wrote:
|
This means that he cannot act in any way that negates or contradicts his attributeus.
|
Well, you will need to list a COMPLETE LIST of His attributes then we can discscuss one after the other and see if He contradicted any attribute of His
Nicolei wrote:
|
This means that God is consistently good, just, holy etc.
|
Repitition is also dismissed
Nicolei wrote:
|
This question may bring out what I mean that God is limited by himself: If God is so powerful and all knowing, can God then tie a knot so complicated that God himself cannot untie?
|
Athiesm thought and crap will be dismissed
on the other hand, there should be no need for God to do such thing, because there is nothing that is complicated to Him, maybe to His creatures the knot is complicated but with God, nothing is complicated, therefore the above atheist crap is dismissed
Nicolei wrote:
|
If God is indeed able to do everything and there are no limits for him, then he should be able to tie such a not. But by doing so God will negate himself and made himself "not God"
|
Dismissed
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
We believe our scriptures give/reveal sufficient answers, but not exhaustive comleteruote
|
who is "Our"?
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
on the other hand, I say that the Quran has given the believers in it complete answers to who the God is and it complies with annything that I agreed upon, above
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Salam Nicolei
I would like to add a quick comment that is not related to the subject of the debate rather related to the objective of this debate
You claimed that you will prove that the God of the Quran cannot be the God of the Bible, and in this case you need to prove it 100%, i.e. 99% means that you failed
On the other hand, if we are starting with a fair propability concerning the possibilty that the God of the Bible being the same God of the Quran, then it should be 50:50
now what you need to do is to make it 100:0, where 100 equal to the Gods of the two scriptures are not the same, this is how you can only achieve the proof beyond an atom weight of doubt, if you can't make it 100:0 as you claimed then you would have considerd to have failed to make your point
for me however, if I manage to make the percentage anything else but more than 50:50 and less than 100:0, that the two Gods most likely are the same, for example, if I manage to make it 60:40, being 60 for the two Gods being the same and One God, then I would have then made my point
Please consider the above very seriously before you proceed, and if you have any objection please take the stand and express it
Cheers
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Salam Nicolei
I would like to add a quick comment that is not related to the subject of the debate rather related to the objective of this debate
You claimed that you will prove that the God of the Quran cannot be the God of the Bible, and in this case you need to prove it 100%, i.e. 99% means that you failed
On the other hand, if we are starting with a fair propability concerning the possibilty that the God of the Bible being the same God of the Quran, then it should be 50:50
now what you need to do is to make it 100:0, where 100 equal to the Gods of the two scriptures are not the same, this is how you can only achieve the proof beyond an atom weight of doubt, if you can't make it 100:0 as you claimed then you would have considerd to have failed to make your point
for me however, if I manage to make the percentage anything else but more than 50:50 and less than 100:0, that the two Gods most likely are the same, for example, if I manage to make it 60:40, being 60 for the two Gods being the same and One God, then I would have then made my point
Please consider the above very seriously before you proceed, and if you have any objection please take the stand and express it
Cheers
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
And peace be unto you AhmedBahgat,
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
The very fact that we have agreed to so many presuppositions concerning God already means that from the Koran you will have many verses to show that Allah is consistent to those presuppositions and I likewise will have many verses from the Bible to show that YHVH is consistent to those presuppositions.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
So there is no way to prove 100% as you put it.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
If 100% is the standard of proof for me to believe in my YHVH, there will be no way I (or you for that matter) can say that the Satanists are wrong to say that God is actually Satan since Satan have supernatural powers (though we presuppose not 100%) like God.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
The Bible also says that Satan came disguise himself as an angel of light.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Second thing is that there is no way to measure holiness, goodness and the attributes of God.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
How much, big or heavy is 100% goodness, holiness, love, mercy?
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
This is the argument I use to tell people who do not believe in God because they say that there is no ?????????????????????¢??scientific?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? proof of God?????????????????????¢??s existence.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
I ask them that if that is their belief, then since there is no scientific way to measure love, (is love measured in length, weight, volume or pressure? How much is 1 c.c. of love, How tall is God?? What instrument can measure love or God? Is it not measured by the heart and mind and seen in human relationships and creation?) they must also believe that their love for their parents, spouse and children do not exist.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Having said that, I would look silly if I simply say that the God of the Koran is called by a different name from the God of the Bible is proof enough that they are not the same God.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
You may or may not have read thoroughly the evidence that I had posted in other threads, but I intend to compare some aspects of the nature of YHVH with Allah and propose that these differences in nature are important enough to show that they cannot be the same God.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Again that will my point of view and you may not accept it as reasonable proof. Of course since we are dealing with subjective topics as attributes and nature, the idea of 100% proof is well - subjective.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Both of us are very well entrenched in our positions. Just like you are Koran only and no hadiths,
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
which goes against the majority of Muslims,
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
I am very likely a minority who go against the mainstream Churches whose leaders seem to accept that Allah and YHVH are the same God.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
So I accept that my standard of proof may not be acceptable to you and vice versa.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
So that means when I say that that is proof, it really means proof from my perspective. In one sense the readers of this forum will be their own judge.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
In the end I know I will learn much from you. Whether what I learn will change my entrenched position and mind is yet to be known. But I am sure the God whoever he is will be pleased that we both want to understand more about him.
I hope your time in Cairo was good.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Sorry for the delay, I'm actually in London right now and do not yet how long I will stay here, hope it won't be that long as I already missed Australia and my family and my day to day life in there big deals, I feel home sick already
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
But your proposition that you will prove it beyond an atom weight of doubt, or would you like to change your proposition now to be "Most likely the two gods are not the same god?"
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Can you please list those Satanic supernatural power and we should see how close that can be to the superiorty of the one and only God
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Again that will my point of view and you may not accept it as reasonable proof. Of course since we are dealing with subjective topics as attributes and nature, the idea of 100% proof is well - subjective.
|
But you are the one who claimed that you will prove it beyond any doubt, or would you like to rephrase your proposal that the evidences you will provide imply that the two gods may not be the same?
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Please, do not repeat the ignoraqnce and confusion by many goons in here, I'm not a Quran only Muslim, I only use the Quran in my religious discussions with the kafirs, I actually use the hadith in my religions discussions with the hadith worshippers, simply I'm a hadith listener but I'm not a hadith worshipper.
|
Quote:
|
http://kassimahmad.blogspot.com/2005/06/why-row-over-anti-hadith-but-silence.html
In 1986, I published a book, Hadis - Satu Penilaian Semula (Prophetic Traditions - A Re-Evaluation) with the above stated intention, that is, to let the people know more of about the Quran. Many of the hadith compiled by Bukhari, Muslim and others that we use today, according to my study, are in conflict with the teachings of the Quran. I will cite three examples.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
I am very likely a minority who go against the mainstream Churches whose leaders seem to accept that Allah and YHVH are the same God.
|
That is why the onus is on you to prove them wrong, exactly as I'm doing with the hadith worshippers
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
well, that is if you present argumets from your mind not from scriptures, on the other hand when I fight the confused Muslims I only presnet argumnet from their books (Quran and hadith), nothing from my mind, (I spend a week in cairo fighting them until I lost my voice, in fact every time I visit Cairo I have to lose my voice due to the intense discussions I go through with all those confused Muslims including family and friends, my passion to the subject of my religion is way too much that it is has a great toll already on what I should be doing in this life, in fact my first priority in this life has become orieneted in saving as many as I can from my fellow Muslims, I'm happy that many has started to listen to me and even support me despite at the beginning was classified 100% wrong by many of them, they even told me that they will prove me wrong, they never did and I never budged off m y position because they never presnted a valid argument, all their crap was replied and refuted by me, that is why many started to think again about their opposition to my message that is only based on the Quran and their hadith
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Sorry for the delay, I'm actually in London right now and do not yet how long I will stay here, hope it won't be that long as I already missed Australia and my family and my day to day life in there big deals, I feel home sick already
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
No apologies required, we have agreed that there would not be any time limit for replies. I will be absent from FFI from Friday till next week and I am now preparing for the trip, so I am also busy myself and will not be posting so frequently.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
But your proposition that you will prove it beyond an atom weight of doubt, or would you like to change your proposition now to be "Most likely the two gods are not the same god?"
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
You are right, I do sound pompous and presumptuous to think that the general readers and you would see it from my perspective (being a Christian) as beyond any shadow of doubt. I think "beyond reasonable doubts" which would be closer to your suggestion.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Can you please list those Satanic supernatural power and we should see how close that can be to the superiorty of the one and only God
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
From our perspective as believers in a holy God, naturally our presuppositions about Satan would be that he is invisible and can be in many places,
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
take on any forms to carry out his evil deceit.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
From the occult practitioners' perspective, Satan is has tremendous power and naturally they would see God as a rival.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Other pagan religions also claim their gods to have many of the attributes of the God that we believe in, but that does not mean that the mean that their gods are the same YHVH or Allah should they make such a claim. From the pagans perspective, theirs is the true religion.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
But you are the one who claimed that you will prove it beyond any doubt, or would you like to rephrase your proposal that the evidences you will provide imply that the two gods may not be the same?
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Yes I would like to rephrase it (although from my personal perspective, I see it as absolute proof) but that would be presumptuous to expect others to see it that way. I believe "beyond reasonable doubts" would be, well, reasonable.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
Please, do not repeat the ignoraqnce and confusion by many goons in here, I'm not a Quran only Muslim, I only use the Quran in my religious discussions with the kafirs, I actually use the hadith in my religions discussions with the hadith worshippers, simply I'm a hadith listener but I'm not a hadith worshipper.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Not that it is relevant, but more to side- track a bit. Are you familiar with the works of the Malaysian Muslim by the name of Kassim Ahmad?
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Here's an excerpt from his weblog
Quote:
|
http://kassimahmad.blogspot.com/2005/06/why-row-over-anti-hadith-but-silence.html
In 1986, I published a book, Hadis - Satu Penilaian Semula (Prophetic Traditions - A Re-Evaluation) with the above stated intention, that is, to let the people know more of about the Quran. Many of the hadith compiled by Bukhari, Muslim and others that we use today, according to my study, are in conflict with the teachings of the Quran. I will cite three examples.
|
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Kassim Ahmad was censured by the Malaysian Muslim authorities. His book -Prophetic Traditions - A Re-Evaluation was banned in Malaysia. But in case you are interested, it can read from this Islamic website:
http://www.quran.org/library/articles/ahmad0.htm
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
The other Muslim that I am impressed with is Mahmoud Taha of Sudan, who has been called the "Islamic Gandhi" for his very simple and humble lifestyle. His works have influenced some "moderate" Muslims that I have personally met . Unfortunately they executed Mahmoud Taha on charges of heresy/apostasy.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
That is why the onus is on you to prove them wrong, exactly as I'm doing with the hadith worshippers
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Looks like I have a tough task ahead.
|
AhmedBahgat wrote:
|
well, that is if you present argumets from your mind not from scriptures, on the other hand when I fight the confused Muslims I only presnet argumnet from their books (Quran and hadith), nothing from my mind, (I spend a week in cairo fighting them until I lost my voice, in fact every time I visit Cairo I have to lose my voice due to the intense discussions I go through with all those confused Muslims including family and friends, my passion to the subject of my religion is way too much that it is has a great toll already on what I should be doing in this life, in fact my first priority in this life has become orieneted in saving as many as I can from my fellow Muslims, I'm happy that many has started to listen to me and even support me despite at the beginning was classified 100% wrong by many of them, they even told me that they will prove me wrong, they never did and I never budged off m y position because they never presnted a valid argument, all their crap was replied and refuted by me, that is why many started to think again about their opposition to my message that is only based on the Quran and their hadith
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
You do sound like Kassim Ahmad.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
I hope to present my evidence before I leave this weekend. If not It should be out by end of next week.
Pax vabiscum
|
Quote:
|
and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, - Genesis 22:16
|
Quote:
|
But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' " ?????????????????????¢?? Jeremiah 22:5
|
Quote:
|
Hebrews 6:13-16
The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants." 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.
|
Quote:
|
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/056.qmt.html
056.075
YUSUFALI: Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the places of the stars -
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/074.qmt.html
074.032
YUSUFALI: Nay, verily: By the Moon,
PICKTHAL: Nay, by the Moon
SHAKIR: Nay; I swear by the moon,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/091.qmt.html
091.001
YUSUFALI: By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;
PICKTHAL: By the sun and his brightness,
SHAKIR: I swear by the sun and its brilliance,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/090.qmt.html
090.001
YUSUFALI: I do call to witness this City;-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by this city -
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by this city.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
First, please accept my apologies for not posting at least two weeks ago. There were some unexpected events including a funeral that came up and I could not meet my obligations here.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
I hope your time in Cairo and in London was fruitful and fair dinkum
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
So here it is.
Proof that Allah of the Koran is not the same God as YHVH of the Bible.
Evidences from the Bible and the Koran
Note: all the Bible verses I quoted here were taken from the New International Version Bible (NIV) from this website http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31#booklist
which also has other versions.
The Koran verses are taken from the University of Southern California - Muslim society of America, University of Southern California website at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
When God speaks, what he said are true and can be trusted and are important as it is already even when he does not swears or make an oath to emphasize the importance of what he had to say.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
So when God swears or make an oath, what he swears is even more important.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
What God say will reveal his nature and character. What God swears by will reveal even more of God's character and nature. Basically the evidences show that the manner that YHVH swears is different from the way Allah swears and so it reveals that the character of YHVH is fundamentally different from Allah and therefore they cannot be the same God.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Evidences from the Bible
Quote:
|
and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, - Genesis 22:16
|
Here we see that the God of the Bible swearing by himself to Abraham.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Quote:
|
But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' " ?????????????????????¢?? Jeremiah 22:5
|
Here we see again that the God of the Bible swearing by himself.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Quote:
|
Hebrews 6:13-16
The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants." 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.
|
Here the Hebrews writer reiterated that since there was no one greater than the God of the Bible, the God of the Bible logically swore by himself when he made his promise to Abraham. Verse 16 gave the rationale that a person will swear by something or someone greater than him or herself.
So YHVH by swearing by himself is saying that He is the ultimate point of reference and no one is greater than Himself and He is staking his reputation as God that He will fulfill what he swore to Abraham.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Now we look at how Allah swears
Evidences from the Koran.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/053.qmt.html
053.001
YUSUFALI: By the Star when it goes down,-
PICKTHAL: By the Star when it setteth,
SHAKIR: I swear by the star when it goes down.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Quote:
|
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/056.qmt.html
056.075
YUSUFALI: Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the places of the stars -
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/074.qmt.html
074.032
YUSUFALI: Nay, verily: By the Moon,
PICKTHAL: Nay, by the Moon
SHAKIR: Nay; I swear by the moon,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/091.qmt.html
091.001
YUSUFALI: By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;
PICKTHAL: By the sun and his brightness,
SHAKIR: I swear by the sun and its brilliance,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/090.qmt.html
090.001
YUSUFALI: I do call to witness this City;-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by this city -
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by this city.
|
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Theses are just some examples of how Allah swears, There are many more from the Koran.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
From the above verses in the Koran we see that Allah does not swear by himself who is supposed to be the almighty creator and worthy of all honors. All of creation are to honor Allah who is the greatest.
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
Instead Allah had implied that the stars, the moon, and the sun are greater than Allah - the very things Allah are supposed to have created. He even swore by a man-made city!!!!
|
Nicolei wrote:
|
God is almighty, Creator of all things and is the reference point for all of life. The Bible says that YHVH swore by himself because no one is greater than YHVH. If Allah is the same as the God of the Bible then Allah would have sworn not by his creation, but by himself as YHVH did.
|
Dismissed
Next argument
Cheers
- Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:35 am
Post subject:
Hello Nicolei
I?????????????????????¢??m sorry that I have to break the rules that we have agreed upon, hope you are doing great first, the reason that I?????????????????????¢??m adding this comment without waiting for you to reply to my last comment is simply as follow:
I wanted to write this comment for about 2 days and never had time to do so because I'm away from home as you know, , if you remember that in my last comment where I replied to your argument where you said that swearing by other creatures or facts implies importance and I stated that it implies greatness. My reply was actually is what I thought of logically, it was never based on the Quran due to my possible ignorance to the verses of the Quran, a few days later while doing my day to day life in London, a couple of verses hit my head, AMAZINGLY the verses confirm what I stated in my last comment regarding such specific argument, let me bring the verses in here and walk you through it first:
75: But nay! I swear by the positions of the stars;
76: And indeed it is a great oath if you only knew;
[The Quran ; 56:75-76]
فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَاقِعِ النُّجُومِ (75)
وَإِنَّهُ لَقَسَمٌ لَّوْ تَعْلَمُونَ عَظِيمٌ (76)
-> See, verse 56:75 is an example to what you are talking about, where we read that Allah swears by the positions of the stars: But nay! I swear by the positions of the stars;, obviously we see the stars in their positions in the sky every day since we are born, it has to look very natural to us, i.e. there is no greatness behind it, it is just nature, an automatic thingy, while the fact of the matter if we are born all of a sudden at 40 years old we will look around and wonder about all these positions of these numerous number of the stars. In the next verse 56:76 we read something very interesting, something about the oath by Allah: And indeed it is a great oath if you only knew; , SEE, that is exactly what I told you in my last comment, it is about GREATNESS and not about importance, can you see the word عَظِيمٌ , Azim, i.e. great that is describing the Qasam i.e. describing the oath, therefore the Quran confirmed what I alleged without prior knowledge that the Quran is supporting my argument against your argument, that is why I love such great book, it says what I logically understand and know about the one and only God. See how the verse said it: And indeed it is a great oath if you only knew;, obviously you did not know that, and to the contrary I knew it.
Now, what you need to do to counter my argument is show us where in the Bible that swearing by other creatures or facts, implies importance and not greatness !
Your argument holds no water because, if it implies importance then the two times the God swears by Himself in the Bible must mean that He is saying that He is important instead of saying that He is great
Cheers
All times are GMT + 10 Hours
Powered by phpBB 2.0 .0.17 © 2001
phpBB
Group