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rowlandm wrote:
and cause I know you have already debated 4:34 it might be a good start. |
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rowlandm wrote:
Actually what would be good if you could give me an idea of which quran has the most ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????accurate????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? english translation ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢?? that would help too. |
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rowlandm wrote:
From the MSA translations of 4:34 they put on the internet one says: As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, As for those from whom ye fear rebellion and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion Which one is the most accurate from a literal translation of the Quran? |
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rowlandm wrote: What is the arabic word(s) they use and does it mean straight out disobedience or more of a public thing (if you know what I mean)? |
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rowlandm wrote: I was also wondering if there was a time limit specified in the Quran ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢?? I thought about this when one translation Yusef Ali said: |
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rowlandm wrote: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly)????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? |
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rowlandm wrote: And I thought, would this cover a man who admonished, after 10 minutes said he wasn't going to sleep with his wife, and after 30 minutes decided to beat her? |
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rowlandm wrote: While I understand that the verse is very much ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????forget about the past????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? in terms of women's disobedience, is there anything specific in that verse that says how a man should beat a woman? |
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rowlandm wrote:
Thanks very much for taking the time to read my PM's and also being able to respond truthfully! |
rowlandm wrote: |
Ahmed, |
rowlandm wrote: |
From the very little that I know of you, I would find it difficult to believe that you would resort to any kind of physical violence against your wife, given that you would only beat her if you thought it would actually have a positive impact. Plus the fact that you would also have the local laws to consider. |
rowlandm wrote: |
Is there any circumstance where you personally would consider it appropriate (provided your wife kept doing the ill conduct) to beat her? |
rowlandm wrote: |
Obviously the three step process is a cooling off period and if reasonable discussions fail due to differences of opinion would you probably consider divorce before domestic violence (please note this is a question based on the possible, not the probable - congrats on being married 15 years btw) ? |
rowlandm wrote: |
Cheers, |
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Taqiuddin Hilali and Muhammad Mushin Khan translation
because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means |
Myr wrote: |
Salam Ahmed, all,
I tend to disagree with you on some of your statements but for now I would like to tackle item # 7 and your claim about alcohol/fermentated drinks (khamr) in the light of the Quran. |
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rowlandm wrote: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly)????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? For the word Lightly, I totally disagree with him because there is nothing in the context that suugest it has to e light beating, however a husband who exhaust the first two options with an ill conduct wife, I'm sure he will beat her lightly and not with a hammer, he must have been a wise man to exhaust the first two options, there are many who just beat their wives on the spot including non muslims |
rowlandm wrote: |
Actually, got a couple of more questions/clarifications I didn't think of before, mainly to do with Ahmed's comments here: |
rowlandm wrote: |
1/ Is what you are saying here is that while a wise man has more intellect and tools at his disposal so as to not resort to beating his wife |
rowlandm wrote: |
in the first instance and then beating her lightly to reduce the physical harm to her in the third instance - Allah would still allow an unwise man (you know what I mean) who is following the Quran blindly (but in good faith) to beat his wife badly (potentially with a hammer)? |
rowlandm wrote: |
2/ As an addition to that, you seem to imply that there is no "strength" associated with the arabic word for beating (what is that word by the way?) as in not lightly or harshly. |
rowlandm wrote: |
Does that mean that Allah's maximum limit for beating in 4:34 could possibly be something just under death (eg. coma or unconciousness) due to verses in the rest of the Quran (ie do not kill)? |
rowlandm wrote: |
I would welcome all viewpoints (not just Ahmed's) on this as I know this one is a bit tricky because it needs an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Quran (to draw in other verses together) and I know that Ahmed tries his best with his current knowledge but like the khamr debate it might have to be a lot of people joining together to get an accurate response to this and for everyone to (potentially) learn something new. NOTE: I'd like to clarify this last sentence - I turn to Ahmed to provide me with an honest translation of what particular verses in the Quran mean (which I appreciate no end). But I recognise that I should not burden Ahmed with researching the entire Quran end to end just to answer a generic question I might have - that really is the job for a .... Imam or Mufti? I did not want to come across as having a poke at Ahmed's expense.
Thanks in advance! |
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rowlandm wrote: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¹ Select ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????º Does that mean that Allah's maximum limit for beating in 4:34 could possibly be something just under death (eg. coma or unconciousness) due to verses in the rest of the Quran (ie do not kill)? of course not, because in this case the husband who should be a believer from the first palce as well a wise man should not think of Allah this way because it makes no sense and will put the ill conduct wife life in danger |
fire-snake wrote: |
Bahgat, what kind of ill conduct of wives that deserve the beating? |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
Actually your question is flawed
here is how you should have asked your question: Bahgat, what kind of ill conduct of wives who insist on it that deserve the beating? Now when I go home I will reply to the modified and proper question above |
fire-snake wrote: |
OK. I'll wait for the next 6 hours. & |
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The pious husband may do the following in order:
1) Admonish and advice her POLITELY to fix her flaws by either STOPING IT or CHANGING IT, but if she insist on her ill conduct then: 2) Abandon her in bed, but if she still insist on her conduct then 3) Beat her, but if she still insists on here conduct then: 4) Divorce her |
Myxtic wrote: | ||
bro .... i have a confusion which is based on a question raised by a Muslim brother .... can DARABA here mean to separate / leave / go away / forsake .... ?? he showed me the following link to put forth his point .... ض ر ب = Daad-Ra-Ba = to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention, state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march own, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, leave for sake, take away thing (with 'an). http://www.studyquran.co.uk/4_DAD.htm |